Pentane
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 |
 Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 05:35AM |
I saw a title on a thread (which turned out to be unrelated) that gave me this idea.
Most of the "hardcore" PW servers ended up using HCR or some variant of it to help bring balance to the server, patch up security issues, control death scenarios and whatnot. The problem with HCR is that it was unwieldly, occasionally bugged, and difficult to integrate new scripts into. Likewise, the HCR wasn't PW orientated specifically - it was a general package for multiplayer, single player and assorted that had to take into account all sorts of factors.
My work on a series of PW's has left me with a pretty large bag of scripts, tricks, and all sorts of optimization ideas. I'm thinking of making a modular, light-weight scriptbase that's easy to customize, has a low footprint for resource usage, is coded and documented to support plug-in scrpts, and supports a configuration file to help make it easy for even the novice to control how their PW works.
We've got a huge number of scripts sitting on the database and all sorts of optimizations.
Now this is something I figure I will personally end up making and writing most of anyway. My question is - would other people find this useful? More, would others be interested in working on this with me?
Let me first disclaim that the scriptbase wouldn't be designed as the be-all end-all of PW's. The intent would be to create a stable platform that as many people as possible would find useful, whatever their needs. The purpose isn't to tell people how their PW "should" be run, but rather give them the abillity to choose themselves how things work. |
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Kosmous
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 08 Jul 2002
From: Philippines |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 05:45AM |
That's a great sentiment but in my experience, the only reason why HCR was used by a number of PWs (im sure most didn't) was for the same reason it was hated: many many options.
This made it so that non-scripters trying to do PWs could do seemingly advanced stuff right away by just toggling aspects on and off. However, this made the whole system extremely bulky and hard to modify (which shouldve never been the case).
Hence, if your objective is try to make a PW base package for NWN2, i suggest creating a similiar program to Lilac's Script Gen except that it specializes on making popular and obscure "core ruleset" concepts (ie. all sorts of bleeing, death and fugue plane etc..). Also it should give tips to PW admins on how to create a good looking fugue plane, camping tools etc...
Just my 2 cents. |
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FrogKnight
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
From: Kingston, TN |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 07:36AM |
Excellent idea Pentane!!
I would deffinately be interested in this.
A few suggestions:
1. Set up a basic include with all of your various quest functions, like all your alignment and class checks and such. On a PW these can add up fast.
2. Give us switches so we can comment out things we don't want with relative ease, or even delete sections of code we would rather get rid of.
I do so wish I had time to help you directly with this. Its a great project, and a dandy thing to want to help out the community. You get a gold star!
_________________
a.k.a. Pal
[17:33] [OEI]JESawyer: cormyr is kewl
[17:36] Vulcano: this rome/cormyr thing looks sweet
http://forum.cormyr.net It's "sweet"
http://nwn2.warcry.com NWN 2 news for the discerning reader. |
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lazjen
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
Joined: 08 May 2002
From: Australia |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 08:44AM |
An idea that's crossed my mind is to set up something like a sourceforge project (or projects) for scripting projects.
This would allow for multiple developers to work on the project(s) - fixing bugs and adding features.
Would anyone be interested in this type of development sharing?
_________________
Pelagia, the Second Age: http://darktide.rymich.com/
NWN2 Plugins |
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Pentane
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 09:35AM |
A sourceforge site for a NWN2 PW's scriptbase would be awesome.
Quote: However, this made the whole system extremely bulky and hard to modify (which shouldve never been the case).
I'm proficient enough with system design to both enable the builders to easily modify a script and also to allow easy configuration. It's all in how you build it. Not only that but I have a signifigant codebase already established from which I may work.
I'm hoping the idea will take off and we can get something up and running within the first couple months of release. That'll hugely speed PW development.Edited By Pentane on 05/31/06 09:39 |
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Pal_X
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 07 Sep 2004 |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 10:48AM |
If you guys want a forum or something I can set up anything you need on our server. We have gads of extra space and bandwith plus this is a worthy cause in my eyes.
Or if you would rather we may be able to set something up through the Warcry site. We are going to be doing a lot of PW support stuff and this would be a really cool project.
Let me know if your interested and what form you may want things to take. If your interested I will let you know what all I can do for you.
_________________
aka FrogKnight
[17:33] [OEI]JESawyer: cormyr is kewl
[17:36] Vulcano: this rome/cormyr thing looks sweet
http://forum.cormyr.net It's "sweet"
http://nwn2.warcry.com NWN 2 news for the discerning reader. |
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NWNmaster
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
From: England |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 11:35AM |
I would be very interested in this due to the fact that I am currently working on a NWN2 Toolset site (see signature - very much in construction) and it hit me that it might be worth having some instructions/tutorials about PWs.
Cheers
_________________
NWN2 Toolset Site Under Construction http://www.nwn2toolset.com
NWN2 Toolset Manual Click Here |
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lazjen
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
NWN 2
Joined: 08 May 2002
From: Australia |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 12:07PM |
Pentane: I'd suggest looking at the Sourceforge setup around release time, hopefully when more is known about NWN2 in general - I'll assist with this process if you want. Meanwhile, it might be worth thinking about how one can layout a project like this to help with building components and the process of adding new components to the project as time goes on.
Let's say for example, you can determine a core set of scripts that all PWs will need - perhaps they're simple hook scripts or something. That forms the core component. Next, you could add components (or plugins - whatever term you wish) for handling death systems, etc. Later someone comes along and starts work on another feature that forms a new component, etc.
Pal_X: And I think this is where your resources may help. I suggest setting a special forum for discussing this further and in more depth. Encourage the scripters to join there and see if some ideas can be floated on a good structure to set up these projects. Also, Pentane, this would give you a place to describe your current work in detail. We might be able to see how we (the scripting community) could build on the framework, etc.
I think if we can find a coordinated way of doing open source style NWN2 scripting development, we can take bigger steps forward in NWN2 than we did in NWN1 - and do it faster. I really hate reinventing the wheel when I'm coding - I prefer to build upon the work of others. It allows more time for working on other features or doing other things (e.g. playing and DMing  ).
NWNMaster: I looked at your site. It's Obsidian doing NWN2, not Bioware.  Anyway, your website and others like them could help direct developers to a central script repository. Also, there's always a need for tutorials, references and other documentation that these style of websites can provide.
So, if you're a scripter and reading this - what do you think? Is it worthwhile trying for this collaborative development approach? Any ideas to help this along? Pitfalls to consider?
_________________
Pelagia, the Second Age: http://darktide.rymich.com/
NWN2 Plugins |
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Demetrious
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 22 Oct 2001
From: Riverside |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 12:36PM |
Pentane:
I got the base you want sitting on my hard drive at home - at least that is my thought.
Background Story:
Futurewavecs came by the DMFI and wanted to work on developing a comprehensive base system for any and all module level events. He wrote wrapper functions that are extenable and allow for overrides. It is configured via waypoints - drop them in an go. It has multi-language support and comes with a completely dynamic conversation so that any functions you add can be shown via a conversation format.
Days later, he joined DLA. The DMFI Design team is largely, if not near completely, not present at the moment and so my decision was to have the scope of the DMFI be more focused on tools.
So in the last month, I rebuilt the listening side and used some of the principles to develop what I envision as the next gen of the DMFI tools.
That said, the larger wrapper function was dropped. (simply because I'm not a PW person and I felt it was beyond the scope and capabilities of the DMFI Design Team at the moment)
Back to the Present:
It isn't 100% complete. We had emails out to TSS and the newer speech packet listener trying to coordinate the community. The package is listening based from the ground up but myself and futurewavecs see this as where many in the community have headed.
We tried to contact the forum (forgot the name) that was looking at this a month ago - Collaborative Scriping something or another - but they never did any work. This is around 100 or so scripts that are functional and serving as a module wide wrapper. Plugging in existing scripts would be SIMPLE. Writting everything in the DMFI into the package in little pieces (rather than a single plugin for the whole thing - ie getting conversation trees to look exactly like I want them) would be hard but it is a large package.
Anyway, it sits.
I will upload it to
www.riversidemod.com/dmfi/PWbase
It will be the .rar download.
I will add comments to the project and I have redone some of the code for the SendText function in the last month that probably needs to be updated but it is yours if you like.
I can't do much more than that because I am over my head with finishing the tutorial module for DMFI so it can be release here in the next couple of weeks followed by the AI Enhancement Plugin, followed by completing the Rest Plugin, followed by getting back to work on Riverside.
_________________
Riverside: NWN2 City of DM Dreams
DMFI Guild: Help Improve the DMFI Tools
Community Rep: DM Client |
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Pal_X
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 07 Sep 2004 |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 12:42PM |
Okay Pentane! You got a nice write up on the Warcry site.
http://nwn2.warcry.com/
Hopefully we can get some attention drawn to this idea as I think its a dandy one.
Let me know what else I may be able to do.
_________________
aka FrogKnight
[17:33] [OEI]JESawyer: cormyr is kewl
[17:36] Vulcano: this rome/cormyr thing looks sweet
http://forum.cormyr.net It's "sweet"
http://nwn2.warcry.com NWN 2 news for the discerning reader. |
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NWNmaster
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 07 Jul 2002
From: England |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 01:09PM |
lazjen: Thanks for the proof read, will change that slight error tonight Sorry Obsidian 
The site will be hopefully be a reference site to all things building/toolset and was not meaning to host the project rather than kept in the loop so that I can refer peeps to this projects home.
Enough of the shameless plug . I do agree that there should be a base and then the PW owners can decide what plugins they require.
I believe HCR team are doing this for NWN2 (HCR plugin ruleset that is).
_________________
NWN2 Toolset Site Under Construction http://www.nwn2toolset.com
NWN2 Toolset Manual Click Here |
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Demetrious
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 22 Oct 2001
From: Riverside |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 01:36PM |
Quote: Posted 05/31/06 13:09:02 (GMT) by NWNmaster
I believe HCR team are doing this for NWN2 (HCR plugin ruleset that is).
Yes. I think that is true. I'm not sure exactly what they have planned. I asked about format etc. back a bit. Sunjammer was a bit closed lip on the topic I remember.
You could wait and see what they have, or you can run with what is nearly complete. If the HCR builds a wrapper, there is no reason you can't call the HCR base from the generic base that we (largely Deva) put together. It would be a matter of adding waypoints to the module that have variables that reference the HCR base. From there, if whether you tied into the extensions that the HCR put in place or whether you used the base system I'll upload would be upto the builder. But you don't loose anything.
I would say this.
If you are going to have a base system wrapper function, the time to build one is now so that come 1st day of release you are confirming that the upgrade didn't break anything and adding the new module event wrappers into the base. From there you get the thing out the door because the primary installation base will be critical for success.
If it comes out 6 months later, it does much less good.
_________________
Riverside: NWN2 City of DM Dreams
DMFI Guild: Help Improve the DMFI Tools
Community Rep: DM ClientEdited By Demetrious on 05/31/06 13:37 |
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Demetrious
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 22 Oct 2001
From: Riverside |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 01:43PM |
One more thought:
Don't get hung up on what scripts and what functionality go into the base. You can not answer that. That is up to the server.
The base system provides infinite extenability, overridability, multi-language support and that is about it.
From there people put together collections of plugins or a large plugin to serve a purpose - such as changing resting rules or something simple like calling a new script on activating any object.
The role of the base is simply to give a foundation in which everything can be placed in an orderly fashion so that, when things get added or new functionality comes out, it is pretty harmless to change or add new code to YOUR system.
Especially in a PW, no two worlds will have the same base rules so the only base is really one that accomodates everything.
_________________
Riverside: NWN2 City of DM Dreams
DMFI Guild: Help Improve the DMFI Tools
Community Rep: DM Client |
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EPOlson
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 01 Dec 2002 |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 01:47PM |
This is a great idea. We can all do a better job if the scripts work together (and the people work together). Now is probably a good time to get ideas & figure out what standards and interfaces we want. (like clear data vs. function separation, minimalism). Like other, I need to put together a set of scripts for a PW and would love to help.
My initial focus for NWN2 will be enhancing the toolkit. I'm trying to keep things very modular so it can be extended. (for my nwn version I have a library of code snippets that do manipulations to the module file - like check for illegal transitions, force the transition destination waypoints to point away from the edge, set all area scripts to "xxx", create a set of module variables that list the area names, create a respawn waypoint for a chest that contains a list of it's inventory, etc) |
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Sunjammer
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
From: Scotland |
Posted: Wednesday, 31 May 2006 06:01PM |
Quote: Posted 05/31/06 05:35:24 (GMT) by Pentane
The problem with HCR is that it was unwieldly, occasionally bugged, and difficult to integrate new scripts into.
in which case you'll be delighted to know then that the new HCR (currently called HCR2) addresses all those issues and more.
It has been rewritten from the ground up and now boasts a lightweight core that makes adding new systems as simple as setting a couple of module variables (no scripting required). All of our sub-systems use this framework and are entirely optional. So even if you don't want to use the HCR ruleset but want a solid framework for your PW you can (ironically) use the HCR!
Intrigued? Then why not pay us a visit ...
[/pimping]
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Sunjammer
Code Monkey |
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