|
|
 Home  Forum Index Neverwinter Nights 2 NWN2: Players - NWN2 Official Campaign (Spoilers Warning) I Couldn't Continue Playing. Here's Why. . .
NWN2: Players - NWN2 Official Campaign (Spoilers Warning)
anobody
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 19 Nov 2006 |
 Posted: Sunday, 26 November 2006 02:27AM |
I like the graphics, the animation during action sequences, and the custom music. In spite of that, I take serious issue with the writers. The problem with this game is that the plot is never altered. There is a set beginning, middle, and end. Regardless of what alliances, decisions, or actions, the storyline never deviates. If you want to be a hero, you should be able to play that role to the fullest, and equally if you choose to be a villian. The plot line should not be the same either way.
What it comes down to, is that the player in a role-playing game should have the opportunities to experience different results for different decisions.
I also have a problem with the complete avoidance of the cleric's ability to raise the dead until it fits into the pre-molded storyline. You are forced to comply with a limited set of choices, that fit in when necessary to accompany the unalterable storyline. Sequences that can have a major impact on the storyline, such as the deaths of Amie Fern and Shandra should involve the player. I can not sit by watching these cut-scenes when my character should be able to take action and make an impact.
Every action should impact the story, otherwise you are just being dragged along through a story that was carefully crafted by boardroom executives instead of becoming a part of the story. Alliances should matter, choice of character class should matter, and you should not be forced to align yourself with characters that are only relative to the main story and not to the player's goals or personality. Role-playing games like this should not be limited to a one-time play. You should be able to complete the game and start all over, making different choices and experiencing a different world.
That is just my personal opinion, and is to only add to the comments made by other players. I am sure that there are other people out there who enjoy the genre of Forgotten Realms that want to bring their character to life in the game. Unfortunately this game doesn't give you that option. | 
|
DarkzKnight
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 10 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Sunday, 26 November 2006 02:36AM |
Quote: Posted 11/26/06 02:27 (GMT) by anobody
What it comes down to, is that the player in a role-playing game should have the opportunities to experience different results for different decisions.
Agreed this is what it comes down to I don't need Obsidian telling me how to RP or give me 5 diffrent choices that all lead to the same result. | |
|
Xanupox
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 20 Jun 2002 |
Posted: Sunday, 26 November 2006 02:51AM |
I quit playing because the game stopped playing.
it bugged out on me during the keep siege, none of the saves that are from that chapter take me to any other different result than a bugged keep battle.
So my opinion of the game, is that it ***ing sucks. | |
|
regatta
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 |
Posted: Sunday, 26 November 2006 03:20AM | |
The game certainly is linear. The choices are next to meaningless. Well, that's not exactly true: they impact how your NPCs feel about you and this influences the end game---whether the NPC will pick you or Black Garius towards the end of the game. Although this linear nature is pathetically inept for a game released in 2006, I REALLY TRIED to finish the game. I could even tolerate all the ridiculous cut-scenes. I really did try. However, after spending 5 hours getting from the Act Three Reavers to the Black Garius fight due to countless crashes (reloading, reloading, reloading)---well, I just gave up. I shudder to think how buggy the final battle would be. Next time, I'll take 50 bucks, wrap it around an M80 and get more enjoyment seeing it disintegrate into nothingness than I would from this sad attempt at a fantasy RPG. | |
|
bmohler
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Sunday, 26 November 2006 04:42AM |
Quote: Posted 11/26/06 02:36 (GMT) by DarkzKnight Quote: Posted 11/26/06 02:27 (GMT) by anobody
What it comes down to, is that the player in a role-playing game should have the opportunities to experience different results for different decisions.
Agreed this is what it comes down to I don't need Obsidian telling me how to RP or give me 5 diffrent choices that all lead to the same result.
Then you may want to stick to table top games. | |
|
BW022
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 22 Apr 2002 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 04:18PM |
anobody,
Have you even played D&D?
In the game all modules and pre-written campaigns have predetermined plot arcs. It simply isn't possible to write a module which covers every conceivable choose.
Imagine a DM writes a module for her group. About twelve hours consisting of a small town, a murder, and an assassin's complex. Maps, stat blocks, NPC descriptions, etc. The module starts out with a gnome coming into the bar and asking to speak with the PCs.
What do you think happens if the PCs say "We kill the gnome."? Well, maybe the DM scrambles a bit and lets the PCs find a note on the gnome talking about a murder. What then happens if the PCs say "We burn the note and leave the village."
Eventually the DM will say, "Fine. Nothing happens." She no longer has anything prepared. Perhaps the DM is good enough to ask what you plan on doing and then writing a specific adventure for you next week. Is the DM supposed to repeatedly spend dozens of hours on stuff you never do?
Next, imagine that this is a store bought campign - say the "Against the Giants / Queen of the Demon Web" series. Humm... you are going to Sterich, then you fight the hill giants, then the frost giants, then the fire giants, then the drow, etc., etc.
It sound like "otherwise you are just being dragged along through a story that was carefully crafted by boardroom executives instead of becoming a part of the story"
It is a fact of D&D that when using pre-written material that things are scripted. It has to be. Writers can't account for every possible things that could happen and DMs can't re-write entire modules on the fly.
Players even joke about this. We make fish-hook motions when we see obvious plot hooks. I've had DMs put red-herring fish on doors when we were getting off plot. This isn't being mean, but it is a way to ensure that follows follow the plot because experienced players realize that no DM can "wing-it" forever or with as good results as pre-written material.
Almost everything which you've complained about happens frequently in any pre-written module/campaign. Deaths of key NPCs are pre-determined. The cut-scenes operate just like box-text in real modules. Scenes are pre-set-up. etc., etc. We all recognize this and play with what we have. The alternate is to not play at all and hope someone spends hundreds of hours re-writting modules everytime we change our minds. | |
|
Lanaw
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 04:37PM | |
BWO22--- Very well written reply. Nice job trying to point out reality, in a non-reality game. | |
|
technomagus
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 01 Sep 2005 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 04:52PM | |
I agree with BW022 completely. I do however wish there had been more choices, especially for evil characters, and consequences for both good and evil choices down the road. You can't account for every possible decision in a game like this, but there could have been a few more plot forks thrown in to spice things up a bit. It's not that I thought the game was bad, I just wanted more goodness. Edited By technomagus on 12/07/06 16:53 | |
|
Lanaw
Game Owner
NWN 2
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 04:55PM | |
I cannot argue with you either, TechnoMagus, esp. your point on evil characters. | |
|
Demon Wraith
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 05:03PM | |
I couldn't continue playing because I beat it once already, am playing through Final Fantasy XII, have a module to build, several books to read, finals coming up, the Silent Hill games to go through, an interest in replaying Legacy of Kain Defiance, and am considering buying a new game. | |
|
Kale Kross
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN 2
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 05:07PM |
Quote: Posted 12/07/06 16:18 (GMT) by BW022
anobody,
Have you even played D&D?
In the game all modules and pre-written campaigns have predetermined plot arcs. It simply isn't possible to write a module which covers every conceivable choose.
Imagine a DM writes a module for her group. About twelve hours consisting of a small town, a murder, and an assassin's complex. Maps, stat blocks, NPC descriptions, etc. The module starts out with a gnome coming into the bar and asking to speak with the PCs.
What do you think happens if the PCs say "We kill the gnome."? Well, maybe the DM scrambles a bit and lets the PCs find a note on the gnome talking about a murder. What then happens if the PCs say "We burn the note and leave the village."
Eventually the DM will say, "Fine. Nothing happens." She no longer has anything prepared. Perhaps the DM is good enough to ask what you plan on doing and then writing a specific adventure for you next week. Is the DM supposed to repeatedly spend dozens of hours on stuff you never do?
Next, imagine that this is a store bought campign - say the "Against the Giants / Queen of the Demon Web" series. Humm... you are going to Sterich, then you fight the hill giants, then the frost giants, then the fire giants, then the drow, etc., etc.
It sound like "otherwise you are just being dragged along through a story that was carefully crafted by boardroom executives instead of becoming a part of the story"
It is a fact of D&D that when using pre-written material that things are scripted. It has to be. Writers can't account for every possible things that could happen and DMs can't re-write entire modules on the fly.
Players even joke about this. We make fish-hook motions when we see obvious plot hooks. I've had DMs put red-herring fish on doors when we were getting off plot. This isn't being mean, but it is a way to ensure that follows follow the plot because experienced players realize that no DM can "wing-it" forever or with as good results as pre-written material.
Almost everything which you've complained about happens frequently in any pre-written module/campaign. Deaths of key NPCs are pre-determined. The cut-scenes operate just like box-text in real modules. Scenes are pre-set-up. etc., etc. We all recognize this and play with what we have. The alternate is to not play at all and hope someone spends hundreds of hours re-writting modules everytime we change our minds.
apparently you haven't "played" DnD either. The best DMs (and I've had the privilege of playing with several like this) don't run their sessions by planning out everything that could happen in a module. Rather, they construct their world and retain a clear picture of it and its inhabitents in their minds. They add some more major NPCs who will have their own agendas within the world as well. Naturally and fluidly, the world will continue to operate, even if the PCs decide to sit on their butts in the local tavern and do nothing. The DM creates a sort of "ecology" that is self-sustaining.
Actions the PCs take as well can have ripple effects within the world. The DM does not have to plan entire adventures or even sesssion. Only a continued sense of what is going on in the world and what will happen is necessary (with a few add-ons as the DM sees fit to throw into his/her world).
Using only these guidelines, the best DMs can do it all on the fly, allowing for true freeform roleplaying and stories that go in any direction.
In this sense, planning a whole quest isn't what's really required. Just planning of the world itself and the NPCs. It's the DM's choice to have an overarcing connection between sessions, but sometimes it's just fun to play for the journey of it.
While adventurers can be heros, not all adventurers are. And the reason we play is for the journey of it all anyway, not to "reach the end." After all, that's why DnD can be freeform and neverending in the first place, so long as the DM keeps it going. | |
|
Kale Kross
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN 2
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 05:10PM |
oh...almost forgot 
the above post is for PnP games. If you're going to have a single player campaign then of course you have to plan for stuff. I'll still say though that games like KotOR 1 and 2 did a much better job of letting you have that good/evil split (though perhaps that was out of necessity with the light/dark force powers).
But then again, NWN2 will have a great multiplayer experience as soon as servers are built up and hosted on the web. And THEN we WILL have the freeform stuff you guys are all craving.
Best to keep an open mind about these things
...and demon wraith...you one crazy mo-foEdited By Kale Kross on 12/07/06 17:11 | |
|
Xero78
Game Owner
NWN
NWN 2
Joined: 18 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 06:15PM |
/agree with Kale
I was always the DM for my gaming crew (though it's been a *long* time since I played any PnP), and I only ever had vague outlines in my head of where a plot would go. It works so much more organically if you adapt what is happening to the actions of the players, since their actions can then have a real impact on where the story goes. The best sessions sometimes went off ways I would never have predicted, but ended up being great.
That said, it is impossible to do that in a SP campaign, but having your actions show some sort of impact would be nice. The influence system is decent, but has a minimal effect on the gameplay outside of the one make-or-break moment at the end. Similarly, lawful vs. chaotic and good vs. evil actions make no particular difference in the storyline... (though setting that stupid bard in Blacklake on fire made me laugh *so* hard!) | |
|
Pandemoneus
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
From: Pandemonium |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 06:18PM | |
NWN2 seems to provide you with the illusion of choice, such that you appear to have the ability to make a wide variety of decisions and choices that all essentially lead to roughly the same results. I was a bit bugged at the fact that my upgrading made no real different at all, amongst other things. Regardless, I did enjoy the game quite a bit, though I wouldn't rank it among any of my favorites. | |
|
esabria
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
From: Where the absurd is the rule: Catalunya |
Posted: Thursday, 07 December 2006 06:54PM |
OK, you can't plan every single option of thousands of players, but you can make that the choices that you include WITHIN the game do actually have an impact on the game. I mean, what difference really makes having the legal or the chaothic way? None: you end up swearing loyalty to Nasher (strange for a rogue, a druid, or neutral or chaothic characters). Does really afect you making the sidequests with the NPC's? No. You can gain enough influence with them without doing them. Does the class you choose make any difference? No. Does the race (the most important appart of the class) affect? No. There are several things that can severely affect not the end but the way the plot is being handled. Of course the end will be different, but this is a roleplaying game. I know of good old games that have better endings than this one, and with a lot of choosing meanwhile. Does anyone remember Fatal Jack (a graphic adventure) or Blade Runner. Hell, games like Kult had more choices and endings according to them than this one. That is what it is discussed (from my point of view, of course).
I agree with you in one thing. You have to go from A (West harbour) to Z (encounter the KoS). But in the way from A to Z, you can have an entire ocean of choices that will lead to Za Zb or Zc (the end of the game). And if older games managed to make this, why cannot a game in 2006 make it? We want to roleplay our character, not drag it through the story. In Fatal Jack, for example the ending depended in something as simple as this: have youcollected an X piece? You did, fine: one ending. You didn't, the other ending. In Kult, it depends on the decisions you make...
And no, I haven't played the tabletop game. But i've read some modules, and I consider that you can build up the story "on the fly". The module (at my understanding) says the situation of the world. How it develops, it depends on the actions of both, the players and the DM.
It's my point of view though... | |
|
|
Search Forums |
Forums FAQ |
Forum Archives
|
NeverWinter Nights 2, Forgotten Realms and the Forgotten Realms logo, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, and the Dungeons & Dragons logo, and Wizards of the Coast and its logo are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., in the U.S.A. and other countries, and are used with permission. © 2004 Wizards. Software © 2004 Atari Interactive, Inc. All rights reserved. HASBRO and its logo are trademarks of Hasbro and are used with permission. Windows is either a registered trademark or trademark of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and/or other countries. Manufactured and marketed by Atari, Inc., New York, NY. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.
Powered by BioBoards Version 3.00.0 10.1.12.32
Web Site Help
Jobs | Website Terms of Use Agreement | Privacy Policy
Rules of Conduct | Copyright and Trademark Information
|
|
Support
