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 Home  Forum Index Neverwinter Nights 2 NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed) July PC Gamer dumps on NWN 2
NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed)
the_spyder
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR Xbox
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 08 Jul 2002 |
 Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 04:13AM |
So, I don't know about others but here is my impression. I used to be a big PC gamer subscriber. I waited every month in the hopes of reading some new review that drive me to purchase a game that I would thoroughly love. And usually I got exactly that. They even published a letter from my (then) GF.
Then one day I noticed that the Mag was less and less reviews (they got smaller and fewer) and more and more Adverts. After a few months, the size of the mag got skinnier and skinnier and I started noticing multiple page adds showing up. Finally, I said "Hang This" and canceled my subscription.
So my point is, if the mag is going to sell out to Advert like that, do I really care if they trash a good game? I can't imagine anyone who reads it takes it THAT seriously. But then this could all be my opinion.
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As Socrates says: "I drank What?" | 
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RangerSG
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 06 Jun 2004 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 08:56AM |
I haven't believed much of anything PC Gamer magazine has done ever since one of their editors got caught writing a 92% review to Ascendency right before he published the strategy guide to the same game. 
Even worse, the game was so buggy that it was instant coaster material, and it was NEVER supported by the publisher. So PC Gamer's opinions have never mattered to me. The toolset has issues, but OEI has said that it's the priority in the upcoming patches. Once it's sorted out, then we'll see where things lie.
And honestly, I never thought NWN OCs were a gold standard of anything. Only HoTU's was better than 'passable' to me. It was the modding community that gave legs to NWN1. Straight in game material, I thought Morrowind and it's expansions trounced NWN1 and it's expansions. It's the community that made NWN1 the game I still play. Same will be true eventually with NWN2, I'm sure. | |
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Aurorus Borealus
Game Owner
 NWN
Joined: 31 Jul 2006 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 09:36AM |
PC gamer is, of course, biases towards the companies that advertise most in their magazine.
As a result any first-person-shooter produced by a major deverloper will get high marks, even if they only added a "particle-rail-gun" and 10 new areas to play in. | |
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Baron Rosencheck1
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 01:15PM |
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 03:09 (GMT) by Crawl
It definately doesn't compare to maya. Maybe sketchup for those of you who have used it, but not maya. Maya and Max are on entirely different levels of complexity. Take that for what you will, but I've used them all.
Sketchup is a significantly easier product to use than the toolset. I agree not Maya or Max, unless you want to discount significant portions of those programs abilities.
Maybe Corel Draw..which is less complex than Photoshop but still has some complexity. Such comparisons are difficult anyway. There is no argueing the new toolset is more complex than many expected...considering its capabilities I think its fine.
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RangerSG
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 06 Jun 2004 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 01:58PM |
Baron,
I think you posted in the wrong thread. I don't see anything related to what you're talking about here. | |
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Baron Rosencheck1
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 02:07PM |
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 13:58 (GMT) by RangerSG Baron, I think you posted in the wrong thread. I don't see anything related to what you're talking about here.
Really? I thought I was responding to another post within this thread, which is ultimately about PC gamer's Op Ed on nwn2 in which one of their complaints was the complexity of the toolset and upopn which others began making comparisons to other products? 
but thats ok...I dont read PC gamer
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Lazybones
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
From: Sacramento, CA |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 02:29PM |
I read the article, and agreed with most of it.
Can anyone dispute the following points?
-NWN2's toolset is harder to use than NWN1's Aurora.
-There are far fewer mods available now than at the same point after NWN1's release.
-The NWN2 mod community is smaller than NWN1's was at this point after release.
I think that NWN2 has a lot of potential but I also think it is much harder to work with than NWN1. Many people aren't willing to tackle the high learning curve. And many others were put off by the many bugs on release and the lack of wizards and other basic functionality that were in the NWN1 toolset. Obsidian is fixing many of these and the community has helped with plugins, but I do know a number of people were turned off from NWN2 building early on for these reasons.
In the long run, will that result in better quality for the NWN2 mods that DO get produced? I don't know; I do hope so.
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Rob McGinnis
Assistant Producer
Joined: 02 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 03:22PM |
Speaking as a community member:
I will not address the article, but I will address the mods and the potential of the game.
Is the toolset more difficult to use? I think by the very nature of increasing the flexibility of the thing the difficulty naturally becomes more apparent. But I would say it is no more difficult to use than any of its peers and far easier to use than many of the other toolsets out there.
If your total experience in game modding consists solely of creating mods for NWN1, then I think your frame of reference is extremely limited and you are not prepared for the complexities of modding in today's world, unless you can work through the concepts of modding in your mind - without the interface. The NWN1 toolset was made to crank out cookie-cutter areas quickly for a small group adventure. It was made for the lowest common denominator user and, while it was an excellent solution for what was needed, it does not compete with toolsets or tools for today's modder.
As far as quality goes, I think the bar has been raised. The work you would accept five years ago is nowhere near what you expect now. Much of that comes just from our own maturation - Many of us were in our teens and twenties when NWN1 came out where we are now in our twenties and thirties. Some of it comes from the change in technology as well.
With this in mind, many of the modders are working hard to create modules that are "perfect." At the very least, that's a difficult thing to do and takes a lot of time. We demand engrossing stories now. We want characters with character. We don't want to suffer through amateurish attempts anymore - we did that with NWN1, we want better in NWN2. This puts a lot of pressure on the modders. the criticisms dished out make many modders think twice about publishing.
So I don't think it's necessarily the act of making the mod that's difficult. I think it's making a mod that is acceptable that is difficult.
For me, I enjoy them all, amateur and semi-professional alike.
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Don't let your life be about the donuts! | |
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Lariam
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 31 Mar 2004 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 03:23PM |
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 14:29 (GMT) by Lazybones
I read the article, and agreed with most of it.
Can anyone dispute the following points?
-NWN2's toolset is harder to use than NWN1's Aurora.
-There are far fewer mods available now than at the same point after NWN1's release.
-The NWN2 mod community is smaller than NWN1's was at this point after release.
Well, if that is what the article says, that seems fine in my book. The concerns about the size of the community working on mods etc. is a legitimate one, for sure.
I do think, though, that sketching a pessimistic picture of these matters would be weird/unfortunate right now, considering that great things seem to be coming our way in the near future: more patches are forthcoming, the Granny tools should be released soon, the expansion is already in sight, some great and almost expansion-sized mods - from Rogue Dao Studios, say - should be released relatively soon (and loads of mods are in progress), a possibly NWN2-related announcement from the Ossian Studios should be just behind the corner already, and so on. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the next couple of months will bring with them.
[EDIT: I think that Rob makes some great points about the expectations with regard to the NWN2 mods being really high. Combine that with the new voting standards - which I like, by the way - and the authors are facing some considerable pressure... But yeah, the mods need not be perfect! And a rating of around 7, say, is a pretty great rating!]
Cheers,
Lariam
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Forgotten Realms WeaveEdited By Lariam on 06/20/07 15:29 | |
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RoboBaby
Game Owner
 NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 08 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 03:24PM |
I admit, I find the toolset unweildy - especially the camera controls. I almost think it would benefit from dual monitor support like Cubase SX - which likewise has so many windows within windows that you really need to spread things over double the surface area to make your workspace less cluttered.
That said, there are some people who have done incredible (Obsidian beating) work using the toolset so I sometimes feel like I am making excuses for not being able to achieve something of a similar calibre. I probably am. | |
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the_spyder
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR Xbox
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 08 Jul 2002 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 03:31PM |
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 14:29 (GMT) by Lazybones
Can anyone dispute the following points?
I don't think the issue is that these statements are necessarily "False". I think the issue is the weight that is placed on them and the fact that this issue is being drudged up again this far after launch.
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 14:29 (GMT) by Lazybones
-NWN2's toolset is harder to use than NWN1's Aurora.
Of course it is harder. It DOES MORE. And I don't think the Devs said anything BUT that it would be more comprehensive (and by extension, harder).
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 14:29 (GMT) by Lazybones
-There are far fewer mods available now than at the same point after NWN1's release.
So, OK. There ARE far fewer mods out now than there were in the beginning of NWN1. But, quite frankly, when NWN 1 came out, everyone fancied themselves as Mod makers and there was a LOT of crap ground out and put forth as a Mod. The fact that you have to invest more time and be above the bell curve to work this Tool Kit only means (IMHO) that not every person can slap together Sodall and call it a MOD.
My personal opinion is that, the fact that any Mods are in creation at all, based on the relative difficulty of the Tool Kit, is a testament to the community that PC Gamer is trying to marginalize and not a strike against that community.
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 14:29 (GMT) by Lazybones
-The NWN2 mod community is smaller than NWN1's was at this point after release.
It is a sequel. Fewer units sold than the original. So, by default there are going to be fewer mod makers. And the fact that you can’t grind out a Mod in an afternoon simply pushes the point that there are going to be fewer (but probably higher quality and certainly better looking) Mods.
It is about spin. If someone came up with a miracle cure for all kinds of Cancer, one could make a convincing argument that the color was all wrong, or it didn’t taste right. Not that NWN2 is cure for cancer, but it definitely is a cure for boredom in my household. And the fact that NWN2 has a core fan group and is part of a well recognized (if not hugely popular) franchise, means that making disparaging comments in the media about it is sure to create controversy. Controversy sells. And the point has already been made that PC Gamer is more about Selling these days than actually contributing to the gaming community. So I discount the entire article.
[edit] BTW, Rob said it much more elloquently than I. Thanks Rob.
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As Socrates says: "I drank What?"Edited By the_spyder on 06/20/07 15:41 | |
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ogreballerina
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 04 Nov 2006 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 05:14PM |
PC Gamer isn't a bad magazine...it gives me something to read in my "Fortress of Solitude"
You want to talk about a PC mag that has gone down hill...Computer Gaming World...I wouldn't even use that to wipe...
I used to subscribe to both...now I'm on the tail end of a 2 year script for PCGamer..CGW I dumped years ago.
Ahhh...for the days of PC Accelerater,,,now there was a PC rag!!!
Anyway the article was just his wanking on not having any modules to play...he is a big RPG fan!
Maybe he thought if he complained...the fans would get upset..and boom! there would be a billion new mods for him to play...
He's sneaky that way... | |
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Murdane
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 17 May 2003
From: The Land of Nod |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 05:17PM |
Quote: Posted 06/20/07 04:13 (GMT) by the_spyder
So my point is, if the mag is going to sell out to Advert like that, do I really care if they trash a good game?
Most magazines are "sold out" to advertisements--it's part and parcel of the industry. | |
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potato wearing shades, lips and nose
Joined: 14 Oct 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 05:19PM |
It makes me sad that a Gaming magazine is going out of its way to hurt the NWN2 community.  Does anyone here think we really deserve this? Maybe we haven't worked hard enough to show that the NWN2 community is alive. Or maybe its because people are expecting the NWN2 community to be a clone of the NWN1 community a little too much?
As a side question, do people think this parallels the DLA/Strauss relationship a little too much?
potato | |
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Grinning Fool
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
From: Khalidine |
Posted: Wednesday, 20 June 2007 05:26PM |
Quote: As a side question, do people think this parallels the DLA/Strauss relationship a little too much?
Second time mentioned, but I'm still not seeing the relevance  | |
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