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 Home  Forum Index Neverwinter Nights 2 NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed) More Expansions?
NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed)
Nickolaas
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
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SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
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NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 |
 Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 12:30AM |
Quote: Posted 11/04/09 22:03 (GMT) by MasterChanger
Psst, I think the person above meant that asking about Nintendo's involvement policy on PS1/2/3 is kind of like asking if Bioware is making a NWN2 expansion. Sony makes the PS, not Nintendo.
Just a minor correction.
Right. As you can see, I'm very well acquainted with the console game industry.  | 
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GreyhawkWhiteKnight
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
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Joined: 01 Sep 2008 |
Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 11:04PM |
Nikolas it's hard to believe one person could be so wrong on so many levels about so many things in a single short post. But I'm not going to squabble with you about it. I'll just let my prediction stand.
WotC will never again license another 3.5 product, including NWN2.
Time will tell.Edited By GreyhawkWhiteKnight on 11/05/09 23:06 | |
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GreyhawkWhiteKnight
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NWN
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Joined: 01 Sep 2008 |
Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 11:24PM |
Quote: Posted 11/04/09 18:45 (GMT) by BrianMeyer
...Same with WoW which really paved the way for cRPG's.
Are you serious? What are you? Like 10?
WoW isn't even a cRPG. It's a bloody momorpuger. And it wasn't even the first one. Ultima Online was around for years before WoW was even a twinkle in someone's eye.
If there is a father of the modern cRPG it's Baldur's Gate, but the cRPG has been around, and popular, a lot longer than that. Ultima. Final fantasy. Eye of the Beholder. Pool of Radiance.
Calling WoW the father of cRPGs is like calling McDonald's the father of the hamburger.
God I hate momorpugers. | |
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BrianMeyer
Game Owner
 NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 12:09AM |
It really helps to listen and not call folks 10 because they play WoW. I happen to know some CEO's of very large companies that play it and they actually use it kind of like a social network. My perspective is from the business side and not really anything about the art of gaming.
It seems like you really hate MMO's. I personally can take em or leave em, i do love blizzard, but never got into any MMO. If they had a way to let me do what i do in NWN2, sure, but for me i am focused on just this game.
If not for things like WoW, well i doubt as much money would be invested in things like dragonage and NWN2. WoW has enough players as the state of illinois i read once, all other MMO's are basically imitators, but it shows that what was once considered what nerds did at lunch can actually be made mainstream. There are deals with pizza hut where you can order pizza in game and have it delivered to your house. Regardless of what you like, a gaming company who wants to succeed in business can look at WoW and understand a lot of people will pay money for a fantasy game. That was not believed to be true prior to WoW.
Now if Dragon Age or Game X, with custom toolset does as well, then you will have a few hundred copy cat publishers all competing. If it's similar to NWN2, except it's got money invested into marketing which nwn2 never got, you might just be able to have a blockbuster. Once proven to the business community that cRPG players spend a lot and are a sizeable market, then you get new games being made.
While you might hate WoW, it probably is the number one reason there are as many cRPG's as there are. It is a MMORPG, a genre it basically carved otu for itself even though it was not the first, it was the first to do it well, and it actually started as a single player game and as a RPG, and which has quite a few ideas which are influencing D&D itself. Sometimes you end up getting indirect benefits.
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Icy_Hot
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
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Joined: 28 Sep 2006 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 12:21AM |
you mean RTS first.. not RPG... it wasnt an RPG until WOW. and in all honesty .. thats why i dont play it. not that i dont like RPG.. i love it.. just i liked warcraft for the RTS. and i like RPGs i dont have to pay monthly for.. meh.
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Hellfire59
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
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NWN 2
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Mass Effect PC
Joined: 24 Apr 2002 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:05AM |
I hesitate in posting this, but I just have to.
I don't hate MMOs, far from it. I play/ed Eve, DDO, Vanguard etc, but I HATE.. HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE WOW.
I can not and will not ever agree that WOW has paved the way for CRPGs. I believe that WOW has some kind of weird power of its players making them believe these things. I have seen it, in person.. and its a very strange thing.
(yes, I know how completely crazy that sounds).
(Warning, I'm about to rant)
I have /had five real life friends that played PnP with em from time to time and were big DnD fans, they were also regular members of my Battletech and Mechwarrior games.
Now a few years ago (when ever it was) they got wow accounts. Slowly but surely they became difficult to be around. Every single time they were around, no matter what was going on they bent the conversation to WOW.
If we said there was going to be a Battletech game. it was DUDE.. my gnome has a Mech in WOW. OR when they were playing PWs with me in NWN it was always.. "Oh man, WOW has flying mounts why doesn't NWN, or some other worthless comparison.
The worst argument I remember having was about the origin of classes. Now these people played table top RPGs with me since the early 90s and they tried to tell me (looking me in the face), that WOW invented Paladins. (Not did them better, No has cooler paladins... INVENTED them)
Now these are normally intelligent, sane people, but because of WOW you cant hold a decent conversation with them anymore unless you want to hear about WOW for hours on end.
I have heard everything about WOW, from it class to its skill trees to the order a pizza in game thing. I see nothing special about it, My phone and Internet have been able to order pizza for a while now.
DELIVER me a pizza VIA WOW (out of my monitor and onto my desk) and we will have something ground breaking.
(I'm done ranting now, sorry everyone)
take my post with a grain of salt. If you like and play WOW that's all cool. I just plain hate it.
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BrianMeyer
Game Owner
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:06AM |
While i think folks have their own meaning for RPG, it's a broad term, and if you look at the genre's on wikipedia, the Roleplaying Section, which is based on D&D includes WoW.
Now i think what is going on is you have RPG as the name for the entire category, and then you have Action RPG, MMORPG, and the more roleplaying RPG's, unfortunately the same word is used for that sub genre as the overall genre. I know what RPG means, and i think the confusion is are you refering to the broad term which encompasses multiple genres, or the term which defines how you like to play as opposed to the MMORPG.
I think the issue is that there needs to be a better name for the Sub Genre that NWN2 and Dragon Age fits into - which in my mind really should be "Community Based RPG", and is not a MMO, but is as much built by the community as the game developers and has a toolset, single player modules or small PW's built by fans for other fans to play.
Regardless this is quibbling over semantics. My point still stands, from the business side of things, dragon age's success will help us in the NWN2 world, and make prove to business folks that investing $60 million in a game like DA, followed up by proper marketing ( which NWN2 did not really get ) with a product that is released without being rushed, can give a good return on investment. Ideally this goes as well as WoW, no in face exceeds it, and you have company after company aping Dragon Age, with new games that come with toolsets, Multiplayer and single player modules and embracing a gaming community participating in adding features to the game.
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Nickolaas
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 02:07AM |
Quote: Posted 11/05/09 23:04 (GMT) by GreyhawkWhiteKnight
Nikolas it's hard to believe one person could be so wrong on so many levels about so many things in a single short post. But I'm not going to squabble with you about it. I'll just let my prediction stand.
WotC will never again license another 3.5 product, including NWN2.
Time will tell.
Yes Mr. Expert. Obviously you know all.  | |
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GreyhawkWhiteKnight
Game Owner
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Joined: 01 Sep 2008 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 04:26AM |
Brian I don't think you're 10 because you play WoW. I think you're 10 because you believe it "paved the way" for cRPGs. At the time of my posting I only saw 2 possibilities. Either you're a total idiot (and I've read enough of your posts to know that's not true) or you're just too young to know any better.
I must say, Hellfire's suggestion that you may somehow have been brainwashed hadn't occurred to me. That's a plausible third possibility.
There is nothing subjective about the term RPG. It stands for "Role Playing Game". RPGs have been around for decades. Momorpugers are not RPGs and I don't care what Wikipedia says about it. Role players don't have names like "xxx_69_HeadGuy" or "Zuckmyballz". Momorpugers are more closely related to chat rooms than they are to RPGs. | |
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BrianMeyer
Game Owner
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 06:06AM |
Ok lets take a step back here. Can you set aside your hatred of WoW for a minute. I guess the word RPG is owned by folks, almost a religion, i meant a "fantasy" based game, with wizards and fighters, and since MMO-RPG has RPG in it, as does diablo ( which is an Action RPG), both of which seem not to be included in the defintion of RPG i am being presented. However i mean a broader term and not whether playing WoW will send you to hell.
You have to remember there is a distinction between leading technically and artistically, and leading in sales and market share. The people who play WoW - a lot of them never played D&D, never got into fantasy games, and eventually they tire of WoW and end up looking at PNP games, NWN1, NWN2, Diablo, etc. WoW is not the father of RPG's, it's more like the climber who reached the top of everest, proof you can get rich making a fantasy focused game.
Yeah i get that you like your niche and you don't consider WoW anything like how you play, and i get that WoW is in many ways a bad thing for those who play it. I don't see how that is a flaw, but then i've had a few folks tell me they were quitting my PW because it was interupting their personal lives. Really to me the fact it's like crack or heroin, well that to me indicates it's well done that it's so addictive.
When you tell me screen names that sound like AOL chat room names, with kids names and the like, it's says to me that it's a game played by mainstream people and many of those outside the nerdy niche that just plays D&D. Its full of middle school students and it's full of business people. Yeah that is a chat room, and i agree the worst thing about MMO's is the other players. But ANY game which is successful as WoW is going to attract jerks, kids, script kiddies, whatever.
When you say it's not an RPG, well i agree the first one wasn't, that was like starcraft, however the one just prior to the MMO was a real RPG (3.0 perhaps), with an avatar you played and could upgrade, and a story. Perhaps action RPG. And later MMORPG.
Now i don't mean to step on other peoples religion here. I am not a WoW fanboy, but i also see them as catering to the people who like fantasy based games. I also can take a step back and see so many companies jumping over themselves making another MMO or fantasy game. Yes Planescape, NWN1, baldurs gate, TOEE, the gold box games were great, but they really never got to the same scale that WoW reached.
At the end of the day, businesses in the gaming industry are here to make money off of us. They see WoW as proof that they can win the lottery, that those of us who play it can in fact make them rich. WoW is proof that it's not a Zero sum game, that games like NWN2 are in fact something that can be taken mainstream and played by a larger market. This happened with science fiction movies with movies like star wars, prior to that sci-fi was a niche.
Now if the folks at atari see us flocking to Dragon Age, and the big box retailers see if flying off the shelves, well that only helps atari make a case for selling another expansion. If no one buys Dragon Age, well that is a sign there is not a demand for games like that.
The folks who decide about this stuff ( and this thread is about expansions, and not whether WoW is an RPG, which is what the point i am still trying to make is and not what the word RPG means ) look at how well other companies are doing when they decide whether or not to move forward with a new expansion. Games like Myst, Sims, WoW, Halo and of course the sports games are why game developers come to work in the morning. If they think NWN2 will sell like WoW with another expansion, they will be making it and investing millions in it.
What needs to happen is for a gaming company to figure out the recipe for making a game like NWN2 which appeals on the scale WoW does business wise.
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Shallina
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 06:58AM |
Everyone said PC games is dead. And then comes WoW. I don't know their sale number, but just their activ user is blowing away the sales of console game maker.
No compagnie of console game maker sold as much as copy with all their game put together than Blizzard sold WoW copy. Wow is just the biggest slap on the face to all those marketer that were saying stop making games for PC, only make them for console, even Bioware started to listen to them and stoped making game for PC.
But WoW clearly showed where are the people. It showed it so hard that even after 4 years, there is no console to replace the XBOX360 or PS3.
And no amount of lobbying from Microsoft or Sony to force all the game on console could stop it, Blizzard made WoW and showed that the gaming plateform with the most potential in game number and for what you can do are the PC and the MAC and not the console.
Don't spit on WoW, WoW is one of the reason that has made many develloper to work on great PC title instead of tiny console one.
So don't spit on WoW, beceause if you got a great game game on PC in the future and not a tiny things on console, it has hight chance that the decision to make a great game on PC was taken beceause of WoW success that Blowed away everything.
No console game develloper can hope to top WoW sales even with all their game put together. WoW shaked those loosy console marketer and console lobby hard, and it's all good. It showed that their mounth was just full of crap. It put them back in the tiny hole where they belong.Edited By Shallina on 11/06/09 07:10 | |
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Lugaid of the Red Stripes
Game Owner
 NWN 2
Joined: 14 Aug 2008 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 07:00AM |
This is a bit off topic, but the big issue I see here is that as games get more complex, the time needed to develop increases, thus driving up development costs. WoW is successful in part because Blizzard figured out a model for continuous development, with subscription fees rolling in every month to pay for it.
Expansion packs try to do the same thing, financing continued development, though lately it seems that developers can do little more than release a buggy half-finished game after a year or so of development, and then hope that enough players buy it to justify actually finishing the game with patches and expansion packs. But consumers won't put up with that kind of product forever, and may tend to keep playing the old, fully-patched games instead of upgrading to the next thing, making new game development even less lucrative.
Games with toolsets are another way around this problem, as they use community-made content to flush out what the developers couldn't afford to, and here I think lies the potential for another expansion or even a NWN3. As it is, custom-content, PW's, and modules are something you have to go outside the game to get, picking through IGN's site and BioWare's message boards.
If they could streamline the haks and the download process, maybe even handling it all in-game, so that everyone does it as a matter of course, and bring everything under an OEI website with their own ads on it, and their $10 Adventure packs only a click away. That would give even the most casual gamer a practically infinite play experience right out of the box, with a pay-as-you-go system instead of committing to a monthly subscription.
With the SoZ overland map and modular structure, they could even string new premium modules together into a vast landscape, and maybe even fill some of the gaps with user-made modules and portals to PW's. They're almost there already.
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Shallina
Game Owner
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 07:16AM |
WoW is succefull beceause it really is a great game nothing more.
Make great game and poeple will come. Make loosy game and poeple won't buy them. It's easy as that, nothing more.
It's the same for the movie. Make great movie, and poeple will go to see them, make loosy movie and poeple won't care about them.
It's just like that.Edited By Shallina on 11/06/09 07:17 | |
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MasterChanger
Game Owner
NWN 2
Joined: 12 Aug 2008 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 07:41AM |
You know, I think *some* people play games like WoW because they're good games. Others play them because they're easy. Easy to learn the rules (mostly), easy to start playing, etc. WoW can be played with anywhere between really minimal commitment and absolute hardcore intensity. It does seem to pull people in partially because of its fantasy RPG "lite" aspect. At least at the outset, there's almost no thought involved, and that appeals to some people at some times (I've been guilty of using WoW to veg out  )
On the other hand, there are game aspects that are more challenging to grasp, that take patience, skill, as well as luck. Easy-to-learn, difficult-to-master games are seen by some as the most worthwhile. And so I kinda see Brian's point of WoW as a gateway.
One just have to hope that by the time those people get to one's own PW or forums or whatever here at NWN2, they've shed some of the immaturity that does often seem to go along with such a popular game. | |
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puiwaihin
Game Owner
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
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Joined: 12 Nov 2001 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:07PM |
I wish more people from this forum and threads like this would go to the Atari boards to post on this topic.
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