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 Home  Forum Index Neverwinter Nights 2 NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed) More Expansions?
NWN2: General discussion forums for NWN2 (No Spoilers Allowed)
dunniteowl
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 Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:12PM |
Irrespective of the presented points of view, the single biggest issue, from my look at things, is that, if we would like to see another NWN2 Expansion, then we have to say so.
I have put my voice and handle to effect in this thread over at Atari: Third expansion pack? and after an initial showing of debate, it has cooled down to something of a 'voice' vote of those in favor.
Perhaps it's time, for some proseletyzing? IN other words, getting the word out that there is a place to voice our desire and hope for an NX3. And it might also be time to indicate the pros and cons of such an idea, either via linking to the forums here or starting another related thread over at the Atari forums?
I think, if we can get Atari to seriously consider a 3rd expansion pack, especially now as the Community works to bridge some serious gaps and hurdles in Custom Content and MP issues (check the News Update this weekend, got a really cool news bit coming up) this is the time to jump again.
And if that all can be seen, then the Adventure Pack concept should be something to give teeth, now that the debacle of how to distribute them is well past. Perhaps Atari should look into actually making a profit from the machinery they spent so much time and money on that caused the franchise to languish in the first place?
Lastly, it is an uphill struggle, make no mistake on that. If you think it's worth it, though, and you haven't said anything, then add your voice to the mix. And you know, there are plenty of people who frequent these forums that go elsewhere to MP, PWs and folks from other countries who participate in the english speaking forums here and then transmit some of what they find out to their native tongues.
So to all you other Community Members out there who normally do not speak english that see this, please, add your voice to the link above if you support a 3rd expansion. Go to the Atari site and express your support and, if needs be, copy a link from your Spanish, French, German, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Russian, Turkish or whatever other languages are being spoken to play and game in NWN2 forums to show Atari there is sufficient gamer support to justify the expense to make a profit.
You have a voice. Use it.
The only difference is I am asking for all of us to speak up in the same place for the same thing.
And Atari, if you can hear it, then listen. And if you listen and consider it, perhaps this time you would consider actually spending some advertising dollars this time around. It couldn't really hurt.
best regards all,
dunniteowl
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SunKnight0
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:35PM |
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 06:06 (GMT) by BrianMeyer
Now i don't mean to step on other peoples religion here. I am not a WoW fanboy, but i also see them as catering to the people who like fantasy based games. I also can take a step back and see so many companies jumping over themselves making another MMO or fantasy game. Yes Planescape, NWN1, baldurs gate, TOEE, the gold box games were great, but they really never got to the same scale that WoW reached.
I see it the other way around. WoW is what happens to a fantasy game when it tries to cater to the mass market. No thanks. You see it as a success and as paving the way. I see it as a failure (to deliver content that is of any interest to me) and the worst thing to ever happen to fantasy based gaming as companies stopped trying to make BGs and started trying to make WoWs. Dragon Age is the bet to fix the damage WoW has done.
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Gangster No.1
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:44PM |
Hiya!
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 13:35 (GMT) by SunKnight0
I see it the other way around. WoW is what happens to a fantasy game when it tries to cater to the mass market. No thanks. You see it as a success and as paving the way. I see it as a failure (to deliver content that is of any interest to me) and the worst thing to ever happen to fantasy based gaming as companies stopped trying to make BGs and started trying to make WoWs. Dragon Age is the bet to fix the damage WoW has done.
Signed.
Cheers! 
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Shallina
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:48PM |
Without WoW dragon age would probably be just a tiny game on console.
WoW showed that the PC is the biggest video game market with a hudge marging, and just for that you can thanks it.
Now if you don't like its content it's an other story. But WoW showed that hudge video game project can be done on PC and that they can allow their maker to earn a lots of money.Edited By Shallina on 11/06/09 14:07 | |
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PlasmaJohn
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 04:04PM |
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 13:35 (GMT) by SunKnight0
I see it the other way around. WoW is what happens to a fantasy game when it tries to cater to the mass market. No thanks. You see it as a success and as paving the way. I see it as a failure (to deliver content that is of any interest to me) and the worst thing to ever happen to fantasy based gaming as companies stopped trying to make BGs and started trying to make WoWs.
Signed.
WoW was the worst thing to happen to RPG's, in particular non-massive multiplayer RPG's since nobody makes them anymore.
WoW was the worst thing to happen to the MMO market, now everybody tries to hit a home run or they don't even bother. This has left several niche's significantly under served. The "under served niche" phrase is one that should have business people in a feeding frenzy, yet everybody keeps trying to throw 10's of millions into the next WoW clone. And failing badly.
WoW was the worst thing to happen to Dungeons & Dragons. WoW's metaroles (Tank, Controller, etc.) are actually a fairly significant advance in rpg theory, but Hasbro/WotC's 4.0 is a horrid implementation of them with a D&D veneer. | |
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Shallina
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 04:23PM |
WoW is still a great game. It's not WoW fault if other dev are making bad game. WoW didn't made those other game.
Blame the one to blame, the one who made a failed game. WoW didn't made those failed made, it has nothing to do with it.
Some dev wanted a share of the cake and made rushed product that were really bad. No one forced them to make bad game. Some still managed to make good game, and that was all made without WoW aproval, WoW did only one thing, it showed that there are a lott of PC gamer and if you give them a good game they are going to play it. | |
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nicethugbert
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 11:35PM |
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 16:04 (GMT) by PlasmaJohn Quote: Posted 11/06/09 13:35 (GMT) by SunKnight0
I see it the other way around. WoW is what happens to a fantasy game when it tries to cater to the mass market. No thanks. You see it as a success and as paving the way. I see it as a failure (to deliver content that is of any interest to me) and the worst thing to ever happen to fantasy based gaming as companies stopped trying to make BGs and started trying to make WoWs.
Signed. WoW was the worst thing to happen to RPG's, in particular non-massive multiplayer RPG's since nobody makes them anymore. WoW was the worst thing to happen to the MMO market, now everybody tries to hit a home run or they don't even bother. This has left several niche's significantly under served. The "under served niche" phrase is one that should have business people in a feeding frenzy, yet everybody keeps trying to throw 10's of millions into the next WoW clone. And failing badly. WoW was the worst thing to happen to Dungeons & Dragons. WoW's metaroles (Tank, Controller, etc.) are actually a fairly significant advance in rpg theory, but Hasbro/WotC's 4.0 is a horrid implementation of them with a D&D veneer.
I don't understand this "worst thing to happen" view. It's not like people are forced to play a game. If they're not interested then they can just stop playing it and do something else. WoW just happened to be what a lot of people wound up doing at the same time. They might have turned to TV or so many other things.
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puiwaihin
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 11:39PM |
There's nothing wrong with WoW. I don't think it in and of itself hurts the industry. It's not my kind of game, but I can see the appeal.
I'm waiting for a sandbox-style MMO where your actions have a real impact on the game world.
Neverwinter Nights is a different kind of game. I see it as an interactive story, and something like a 1st generation "holo-novel" (if you're a StarTrek:TNG fan you'll know what I mean). Authors create a story for you to act out with the end result partially determined by the actions of the "reader". It's a merger of the choose-your-own-adventure books with computer technology and RPG.
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SunKnight0
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Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 12:20AM |
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 23:35 (GMT) by nicethugbert
I don't understand this "worst thing to happen" view. It's not like people are forced to play a game. If they're not interested then they can just stop playing it and do something else. WoW just happened to be what a lot of people wound up doing at the same time. They might have turned to TV or so many other things.
It has nothing to do with the people playing it. I could not care less what the players do. It has to do with all the gaming companies spending their development resources trying to immitate it and producing failure after failure because they think they can make the same kind of money, instead of producing single player RPGs, which while they will not make them rivers of gold, they will at least turn a profit if done and marketed right. I feel fairly confident DA:O will drive the point even though given the influx of RPGs in the last year I think games like Mass Effect have gone a long way towards that.
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dunniteowl
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Joined: 12 Sep 2005
From: Bastrop, TX |
Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 05:34AM |
Well if it weren't for imitation...
I think there's obviously something to WoW or it wouldn't have such a large playerbase and, consequently, a pretty large fanbase.
Then again, McDonalds sells more burgers in the world than any other competitor. Fortunately, other than figuring out how to make their own versions of "Happy Meals" no-one seems all that interested in imitating McDonalds -- at least not any more.
And it's a no brainer that their burgers are not only not the best around, they are only about average to mediocre.
And I think this goes with what SunKnight0 said a while back about resistance to change. I don't know that I'd call it resistance to change so much as I would call it a sense of being secure and comfortable with something stable.
Kids thrive, even require, a sense of knowing where their boundries are, desire, sometimes demand, a sense of familiarity and comfort with that familiarity to the point of having anxiety, sleeping disorders, and actual panic fits if these things are not there for them.
Now, being as how I have always felt that kids are nothing more than "Adults in Training" it's not a great leap to imagine that, by and large, folks as they age, still find comfort in the familiar, the routine and ease of things. And that's -- well -- normal.
SO I can see where the WoW crowd gets its fix. I can see how it relates once they get into it. And, as with all large scale phenomenon, sooner or later, revisionism sets in and suddenly, it's "We started all this." And that's because not only do folks like to find comfort and security in the familiar, they also like to think that the things they are into are the best and better than all the others -- or oddly, the first.
Me? Never played WoW. Don't really intend to. I can tell from all the things I have read that it's just not for me. It's like with brians analogy about kids deciding they don't like something and just won't eat it and when they finally manage to "prove" their point and try something they spit it out and make these faces (and I've seen my grandkids and my own kid do these things [which, if I weren't sitting right there pretending to be irritated, I would laugh out loud at them]) and convince themselves that it's worth puking over.
I see that analogy and also offer that, for those that can differentiate (and I don't know if there is a large portion of the world that really can do this) and examine something, if you can't get past the smell, or have tasted it a little bit or smelled something just like that and didn't like it, you don't have to eat it to know you're not going to like it.
Or perhaps a better analogy is, if you don't like loud banging sounds, or high pitched screeching, you're probably not going to like Action Movies or Scary Movies, because they have those qualities.
OKay, I'm babbling and rambling. Shutting up now.
My point was that just because something's really popular, it isn't necessarily the best or the best for you. I am not a fan of McDonalds. I don't really care for vanilla ice cream, and I never wanted a red car. (the most popular hamburger, ice cream and color of car.)
I don't dislike them and I don't think people are stupid, uncultured or without taste for liking them. I just know they're not for me. And I like things I know a lot of people don't care for, or do think is stupid, or weird, or something like that. And I'm totally okay with that.
I won't even touch the "WoW saved PC gaming," comment. I'm laughing way too hard to even debate it. 
best regards,
dunniteowl
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Shallina
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Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 07:49AM |
It didn't save the PC gaming, it just showed that the PC gaming market was way bigger than anyone thought and way bigger than any consol market.
But without WoW PC gaming would still have survived, and the sofware which whould have showed that the PC gaming market is just that enormous would have been an other game, and probably not a BIoware game since they almost touched the PC just with the tips of their finger since NWN. DAO is their first real PC project since NWN.Edited By Shallina on 11/07/09 07:53 | |
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GreyhawkWhiteKnight
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Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 09:17AM |
Most people are morons.
People love crap. More Americans rely on the National Enquirer as their primary news source than any other newspaper. There's a huge market for crap. People eat crap. People watch crap on TV. Billions are made on crap. Presenting popularity as a sign of quality is ludicrous. Yes momorpugers are popular. So is swearing, treating women like party prizes, cheap beer, watching TV, and a host of other things that I personally don't indulge.
Just because it's popular doesn't make it good, and just because it says "all beef" on the wrapper it doesn't mean you're eating meat.
I've been playing RPGs since before most of you were born. I still play D&D using the first edition rules. The first time I ever got published it was an old issue of Dragon Magazine. RPG is word that was coined by us PnPers years before the microchip even hit mass production. It's is an acronym. It means "Role Playing Game". It is a game in which you play a role. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with wizards and fighters and fantasy, Brian. Off the top of my head I can name Traveller, Top Secret, Call of Cthulu, Twilight 2000, Star Wars (d6 and d20), Star Trek, and MechWarrior as a some of the RPGs in my personal collection that don't have any wizards in them.
The term RPG predates the microchip by pretty close to a decade.
WoW is not a RPG. There are a few RP guilds, but as a rule most real RPers have left. For one thing the mainstreamers (of whom you are so proud) actively discourage role playing. They don't understand it, and when they see you doing it words like "stupid" and "Dork"get used a lot. It's hard to keep your immersion when some greifer named "I_PK_Yo_Mamma" catches you trying to RP and decides to dedicate his night making fun of you. Being called "***" and "***" all night kinda sucks the fun out of a gaming session.
A MoMorpuger is it's own thing. An MMO. It's a genre in itself that has nothing to do with role playing. WoW hasn't advanced computer role playing games one iota. In fact it's dragged the genre down by getting the game companies, who also don't understand the role playing market or what an RPG is, to believe that they can shove just about any crap down our throats and we'll eat it. They believe, as many of you seem to, that momorpugers serve the RPG market which leaves me, and RPers like me, out in the cold.
I love the NWN franchise, but if NWN 3 does turn out to be a momorpuger I'll drop it in disgust faster than you can call me an arrogant ***.
Just because it says RPG on the box doesn't mean it's a Role Playing Game.Edited By GreyhawkWhiteKnight on 11/07/09 09:43 | |
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dunniteowl
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From: Bastrop, TX |
Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 02:08PM |
Not that I disagree with you GreyhawkWhiteKnight, I just have to say it's hard to take someone seriously when it's so clearly obvious there's a distinct and strong negative reaction to something. It doesn't matter what it is.
Comments like:
"People love crap."
"People eat crap."
and this "word:" momorpugers
Are all fairly offensive ways to express your opinion. And it makes it hard to "hear" the rest of your point of view.
And for the record, I think you'll find that, while not a lot of us are all on the same exact point of view parade, the majority of dedicated Forum Members that post in such discussions as this will quickly show you how wrong you are when you say: I've been playing RPGs since before most of you were born.
I was born in 1960. To the best of my recollection, the first official RPG wasn't out to the market until 1974 in its first iteration.
Just try to bear in mind, when you disagree or when you're making a point, it's better not to come off too strong or too angry, or too haughty. The rest of the message gets lost in the noise of the stuff most people look at and say, "Ranting."
Like I said, it's not that I disagree with your particular point of view. I think if you carefully re-read my last post, you'll find that, while I didn't say it the way you did, I generally find agreement in your point of view. I just don't state it so negatively.
Then again, my faith in people and their ability to change is probably a bit on the idealistic side. All evidence to the contrary, I still believe people can change over time.
And lastly, this is being posted as a moderator. Just tone it down a bit so we can better hear your message.
best regards,
dunniteowl
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puiwaihin
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Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 02:39PM |
Quote: Posted 11/07/09 09:17 (GMT) by GreyhawkWhiteKnight
Most people are morons.
Nah. Most people simply lack refinement. It's not stupid to do that which makes you most happy. The "lowest common denominator" isn't all about intelligence, it's also a lot about taste.
Quote: People love crap. .... People eat crap..... People watch crap on TV. Billions are made on crap.
There are standards by which you can judge something and come to the conclusion that it's "crap". Low production values, inferior ingredients, limited functionality, etc. But there is a whole other side which is not about quality but about taste and individual perception.
You can say a pizza is crap because the quality control is poor, ingredients are not always fresh, and the presentation is poor. But calling eating pizza crap because you prefer lasagna is a very subjective criticism.
Saying a certain reality show is crap because the interaction of the cast is forced or contrived and the premise fails to provide a strong enough conflict to hold people's interest is fair. Saying reality shows are crap because you don't get into them and prefer dramas is a poor criticism.
Now, I don't know why you would consider a lot of things crap, but you seem to be generalizing about the MMO genre and being critical of WoW specifically and it seems to me that your evaluation is based on taste rather than anything objective. If I've gotten the wrong impression feel free to come back and clarify things. Or you can just call my response crap and give me the middle finger, I could live with that, too. 
Quote: Presenting popularity as a sign of quality is ludicrous.
Not ludicrous, really, but I agree that it is definitely fallacious. If something were truly crap in an objective sense it would most likely be overwhelmingly panned. Whatever is popular is going to have *something* that people like.
But sure, just because people like something doesn't mean it is great in an objective sense. Most people are not qualified as expert critics of things and people are likely to overlook glaring flaws if they greatly enjoy another aspect.
Baywatch had hot girls in bikinis. It didn't matter if the show had a good plot or good cinematography.
Quote: So is swearing, treating women like party prizes, cheap beer, watching TV, and a host of other things that I personally don't indulge.
None of which really qualifies as "crap" in and of itself. Someone else can call reading classic novels crap because the violence sucks and there isn't a single exciting chase scene, or fine wines crap because the price is so high. That criticism is just as valid as your own-- which is to say not at all in an objective sense.
Quote: I've been playing RPGs since before most of you were born.
And?
Quote: WoW is not a RPG.
Wrong. WoW is a game designed for people to play roles in. Many people playing the game, and I'll even go so far as to say a majority of people playing the game, do not role play when they play it, but the game itself is still an RPG.
You could role play during a football game. Your team could be in the Confederate Army and your opponents are Union soldiers. You could stay in character the entire game and have each play effect your ongoing "battle" with all kinds of trash talk and speeches. But that wouldn't make football an RPG. It wasn't designed to be that.
You can also play Dungeons and Dragons according to the roles without making any attempt to play the role. It could all be about stats and numbers. You could talk about what the characters are doing all in the third person. You would not be role playing, but that wouldn't make D&D suddenly not be a role playing game.
Just because it's popular not to play WoW the way it was designed doesn't make it not an RPG.
My first CRPG session was in an small little world called "Underlight" when it was still in beta. It had the worst avatar and character system of any RPG I've ever played, but you could really get into the character and there were compelling philosophies for you to buy into. I then went on to play Ultima Online before it had any of its expansions. It had much better graphics, a richer backstory, and a character system that was at least better than Underlight. But it was full of 9 year old kids whose sole purpose in life was to ruin the game for everyone else.
Yeah, I totally know what you mean. But that doesn't make the game itself any less of an RPG. It's the community that isn't role playing. The game itself is set up for you to role play and provides you with an immersive environment to help you do so.
Quote: An MMO. It's a genre in itself that has nothing to do with role playing.
For the reasons I posted above, that's false.
MMO is not a genre any more than "single player" is a genre. Call it a mode, or a configuration, or whatever else you want, but don't confuse people about the meaning of the word genre. MMORPG is a subset of RPG games just as MMOFPS is a subset of FPS games.
MMO just means lots of people online. It does not have anything to do with anything else about the genre of the game. If you could get 1000 people on a single NWN2 it would be an MMO module. But that wouldn't change the genre of NWN2.
There are many MMO's that don't have anything to do with role playing. There are fighter MMO's, card game MMO's, and even pet care MMO's. Facebook and MySpace host dozens, if not hundreds of MMO's that are not role playing games. You are not intended to play a role, just intended to connect with many people at the same time online. Interestingly enough, some people try to role play in games not designed for that-- sort of like Civil War football.
But World of Warcraft is an MMORPG. The whole premise is to allow you to play a character. It provides quests, backgrounds, and even motivations for your character to act upon. Unfortunately, a lot of people get on and just go through the mechanics of the game and never role play. They are non-role players in a role play game.
Quote: WoW hasn't advanced computer role playing games one iota.
No, it hasn't advanced it. It just popularized what was already there. Just like "The Matrix" didn't advance science fiction. It just popularized ideas that had long been in the domain of the underground. The Matrix did advance film technology, though, and perhaps some of the technical side of WoW server management or whatever will later benefit better MMO's that handle the RP vs. hack n' slash gamer problem in a better way.
Quote: that momorpugers serve the RPG market which leaves me, and RPers like me, out in the cold.
Maybe. But maybe the problem you and others like us are facing is not about the developers, but about the community. NWN is a game that allows tighter control of who you play with because the number of players you deal with is so small, making RP much easier.
With a proper community and game administrators who enforce play policy to protect RP gaming, MMORPG's are very enjoyable from an RP standpoint.
NWN is special because it allows more creativity and more input from more sources. If there were ever an MMORPG that would put user-made content into their games and give them the tools to build stuff like NWN does with their limited multi-player (as opposed to massive), I'd jump on that.
But for now, the industry has not evolved to that point and NWN is the best there is in that regard.
My 2cp.
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SunKnight0
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Posted: Saturday, 07 November 2009 02:42PM |
Quote: Posted 11/07/09 07:49 (GMT) by Shallina
But without WoW PC gaming would still have survived, and the sofware which whould have showed that the PC gaming market is just that enormous would have been an other game, and probably not a BIoware game since they almost touched the PC just with the tips of their finger since NWN. DAO is their first real PC project since NWN.
Got to laugh at selective memory. Props to Bioware for making Mass Effect, easily the best game I have played in years, with just touching the PC with their fingers (whatever that means) and not making it even a 'real' project (again, whatever that means).
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